Cultural Notes

general
21

I think Richard Dawkins has just realised how many stupid people there are in the world.

Richard Dawkins logic lesson rape outrage

Quick precis for those who don’t want to read the article:
Dawkins was giving a lesson in logic and gave these examples:

Date rape is bad. Stranger rape at knifepoint is worse. If you think that’s an endorsement of date rape, go away and learn how to think.

And:

Mild pedophilia is bad. Violent pedophilia is worse. If you think that’s an endorsement of mild pedophilia, go away and learn how to think.

While I think he could possibly have chosen better examples, what he said is quite correct, just because x is worse than y doesn’t mean that y is good.

Not according to the interwebs. Apparently he is insulting rape victims and trivialising rape.
My favourite quote:

Minimising abuse - what is mild rape after all?

Not only did this idiot not understand the logic, they even got the two quotes mixed up. (face hits desk)

22

I don’t understand why the rape of a woman has become the worst crime in humanity. It’s the only crime you can’t joke about, it’s the only one where people have seriously considered changing the bar to assumed guilty, or a preponderance of evidence over a reasonable doubt.

Rape itself is a violent act regardless of whether any physical force is
used. For survivors there is no hierarchy as to what constitutes
‘better’ or ‘worse’ rape. Rape is rape; there is no such thing as mild
rape.

I think statements like this are asinine and remove all logic from the situation. You are equating being gang-banged by 5 dudes to some guy slipping his hand under your shirt, or now some are calling for “Stare Rape” charges.

You can have a mild heart attack. There can be small wars and atrocities. Hell, ask Whoopie Goldberg, apparently what Polanski did wasn’t “Rape Rape”, it was some other kind of rape or something totally different.

But back to the subject. Why is rape worse than cutting someone’s hand off? Or killing someone? Why is female rape worse than male rape? Same with partner abuse, yet 47% of domestic abuse is against a male partner, how is this still a woman only problem?

And why, if two people are drunk, is it the man raping the woman if they have sex? I thought women were equal. For equal partners in society they sure throw themselves out there as fragile special snowflakes.

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23

Because “equality” is all about getting all the benefits of actual equality while not having to suffer from any of the consequences.

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24

I can’t make a logical argument for it. But some things are worse than other things. It’s a more intimate violation than simply cutting off a hand or something. I can think of lots of good reasons to kill someone (and I still sleep soundly, mostly), but none to sanction rape.

No argument at all on the inebriation gender inequality issue. That’s always bothered me. I get that there’s a biological difference which means that females tend to be more easily put in a state of diminished capacity by alcohol, but the assumptions people make based on that and the potential consequences thereof are quite, ah, sobering. Especially in the military context, if she is drinking, you stay strictly hands off.

25

See this is my issue though. The same people who push this stuff also push total equality.

I think to a certain extent some of these people don’t want anyone having any fun for any reason. Especially not men and women together. How long until Stag Parties are the norm just because it isn’t worth the risk that someone will do something stupid, or that a womyn will get stare raped?

This +1. Good way of looking at it, still doesn’t fix the whole issue for me, but it clarifies my thinking some. I know why I think the rape of a woman is a horrible crime and worse than most out there, but the reasons I think so don’t fit into the stated policies of the feminists.

26

Oh, don’t go there, if you value your family jewels. I got lectured back at U of M and MSU, when friends of mine and I were trying to join the Take Back the Night marches, that a) it’s not possible for men to be raped, b) if it was, we deserved it for being male.

And on at least two occasions, it was a person holding a PhD telling us this.

27

Seriously? Isn’t the later part the part the women have beef with? But apparently it’s OK to turn back around on men.?

28

Yup. It’s worse if you have facial hair.

29

And I do. But only because I’ve been too lazy to shave for like three days. :smile:

30

Which is why I wonder why people send their sons to college anymore. Get that boy in a trade school and he’ll out earn most of them by 22, and have a ten year head start on a lt of people. And if he wants to he can own his own business pretty easily.

All while not getting involved iin a kangaroo rape trial at some place you’re paying 30k a year to fill with stupid shit like how horrible they are for existing.

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31

I learned more paying for my degree than I did earning it.

32

Hey, don’t lump all of us in the same boat! Rape is considered to be a worse crime than most violent crimes because it combines violence, humiliation, and belittlement in an incredibly damaging way. Edit: It also includes a level of betrayal, since it turns what should be an act of love, or at least fun, into something horrible. It damages not only the body, but the mind and heart of the victim. Rape is rape, no matter the gender of the victim. Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about dominance and humiliation using sex as the weapon.

For the record, I believe in equality. That means that anyone who qualifies for a job should have an equal chance to get it, or the punishment for the same crime should be equal. Let’s face reality, however. There are physical differences between men and women. Women have a much harder time developing upper body strength, so are less likely to be qualified for jobs requiring a lot of physical strength. Not impossible, but harder. Due to biology, it is harder for a man to be traditionally raped (have sex), but not impossible, especially since there are other ways to be raped. This will cause misunderstandings by people who don’t understand the facts or don’t want to believe them.

I guess I’ve finished my rant. :flushed:

33

No lumping intended. It’s not just women that think this either.

Yeah, there are people out there that believe that if a man doesn’t want to have sex he won’t get an erection. I’m not so sure it’s more difficult to rape a man. Frankly, I’m not sure the involuntary reaction wouldn’t wreck a man a bit more mentally, since obviously he wanted it. But, I’m not going to run down the road of who it’s worse for, it’s bad shit.

I think that 99% of what men do some woman out there can do. 90% of what women do, some man out there can do. Not have babies or breast feed. When I’ve said “no women in the infantry” I’m not thinking of that upper 10% of women that could have torn my face off and made me eat it while carrying me up a hill at the end of a 10 minle road march. I’m thinking of the “average” woman, in every discussion about equalling the sexes they discuss lowering standards, not opening them up.

34

Due to biology, it is harder for a man to be traditionally raped (have sex)

Yeah, there are people out there that believe that if a man doesn’t
want to have sex he won’t get an erection. I’m not so sure it’s more
difficult to rape a man. Frankly, I’m not sure the involuntary reaction
wouldn’t wreck a man a bit more mentally, since obviously he wanted it.
But, I’m not going to run down the road of who it’s worse for, it’s bad
shit.

What you said is perfectly valid. Part of the problem for many rape victims is the psychological damage from their body responding in ways they feel it shouldn’t have. This can happen to either gender in a rape situation. The justification is the same too. Because there was a physical reaction, “they wanted it.”

I think that 99% of what men do some woman out there can do. 90% of what
women do, some man out there can do. Not have babies or breast feed.
When I’ve said “no women in the infantry” I’m not thinking of that upper
10% of women that could have torn my face off and made me eat it while
carrying me up a hill at the end of a 10 minle road march. I’m thinking
of the “average” woman, in every discussion about equalling the sexes
they discuss lowering standards, not opening them up.

This too. If a woman is in that %10 who can make you eat your face, she should be treated with the same respect as any of the guys in the infantry. I don’t believe in lowering job requirements to make it “equal”, but I believe in treating the people who qualify equally based on their performance. Unfortunately, people have expectations, conscious or not. For example, I always had to do just a little extra to prove myself as a desktop tech before people would believe what I said without verifying it with one of my male teammates.

Many of the prejudices are cultural, and it will take a lot of effort and time to change that. Gah. I just read an article this morning about Abe Shinzo, the prime minister of Japan, who is finally starting to say that women belong in the workforce! Gender roles there are even more rigid, so I’m glad I live here. We’re moving in the right direction, but people are people, and there will always be preconceived notions about people’s roles in society.

35

I’m with Woodman on this. People think that it’s harder for a man to be raped because men have to have an erection to have sex. Well, guess what, an erection isn’t a voluntary response.

The only parallel here would be a woman having an orgasm during rape. Think of how that would mess with her mind (I just had to discard three figures of speech to avoid nasty puns).

There were two stories (with variations) going around in the early 80s that may have been urban legends. However, even if they were urban legends, you have to admit that it is possible to do the same thing.

Story #1
Three women enticed a man into their apartment and knocked him out. When he woke up, he was tied spread-eagle to the bed, naked. For three days, the women took turns keeping him erect, without an orgasm. When he was finally released/rescued (stories vary), he was incapable of seeing or hearing a woman without completely freaking out.

Story #2
Two women manage to knock out a man. When he wakes up, he is tied to a pole in the desert sun. The women had taken a length of rawhide, soaked it water, and tied it around his genitals. As the rawhide dried in the sun, it shrank. You can guess what the man’s condition was within a day, other than severe sunburn.

Now, both stories had variations that claimed the men involved had previously raped one of the women. There were also variations on #1 that said this was retribution for dumping (or cheating on) one of the women’s friend, or retaliation for getting a promotion one of the women was trying for.

I heard several variations of #2 that said the man involved was innocent of any wrong-doing; one even said that he was a hitchhiker picked up by the women.

And by the way, date rape drugs, knock-out drops, etc., really don’t care what gender you are.

Now for the really nasty news: a man does not need to have an erection to be anally violated. A man does not need to have an erection to be abused (whips, belts, paddles, clubs, electro, etc.) for the arousal of the perpetrator and/or witnesses. There are lots of people who get sexual gratification from the abuse, denigration, or humiliation of others, without needing to touch them at any time.

I think one of the problems is that, despite common perception, rape is not “having sex with a person against their will”. Rape is “using a person for sexual gratification against their will”. The difference takes into consideration that copulation is not required for sexual gratification.

36

This will lead to more sexual and/or domestic violence toward women in that culture. Men will feel that they are losing power over women, and assault is a way to regain some of that power.

37

Part of the problem for many rape victims is the psychological damage
from their body responding in ways they feel it shouldn’t have. This
can happen to either gender in a rape situation. The justification is
the same too. Because there was a physical reaction, “they wanted it.”

Err… There are women who have orgasms during rape. I didn’t say it specifically because I was trying to be delicate, but that is the physical reaction I was hinting at. It happens to women, it can certainly happen to men. I still believe that it is harder for a man to be raped in the ‘straight’ way than a woman. It is by no means impossible, but, for example, I don’t think a man can get an erection if he’s completely unconscious, but a woman can still get raped. If I’m not mistaken, fear has a serious impact on a man’s ability to become aroused. It doesn’t slow down the rape of a woman. Men are generally physically stronger than women, so they are better able to escape a single attacker. Drugs throw that out the window, but it is another example of where women are more vulnerable than men.

Not impossible, but harder. Due to biology, it is harder for a man to
be traditionally raped (have sex), but not impossible, especially since
there are other ways to be raped.

I did mention that there are other ways to be raped. I stand by the statement above. It is not impossible, by any means, but I still believe it is more difficult.

I don’t mean to belittle the rape of men, but there are biological differences that make it less easy, which is where the misconception that it can’t happen comes in.

Edited to add a couple more examples and add quotes.

38

Yes, men can get erections while unconscious. Most do, frequently, until ED becomes an issue.

I’m not getting down on you. There’s just a lot of misconceptions surrounding rape.

39

Agreed. There are misconceptions on both sides, and the only way to battle them is by putting the facts/opinions out there. From as many sides as there are, hopefully. :slight_smile:

40

There is often a total disconnect from the monkey brain and the lizard brain here. One set of instincts is going “danger procreate now!!” and the other is trying to climb a tree and throw shit at the attacker.

Ask any man if he has had an awkward erection, or even a dangerous, or wrong erection.