Religion is Getting Dumber

general
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I’ve been looking at various belief systems, specifically some of the older Quran verses, a bunch of Kabbalah, and some of the so-called Apocrypha, while I work on the background for a recent project (which I think I have mentioned before). I’m discussing this here, rather than throwing a new thread in the mix, as it is somewhat apropos.

One of the ideas that I had was that the Ten Commandments could pre-date the creation of Man. I took a look at about 6 different versions of the commandments, juggled them a little, and this is what I came up with.

BTW, the race I am talking about here is divided into ten tribes, each of which comprises many Houses, each of which have a varied number of families. A family is comprised of all direct ancestors, all siblings, and all descendants.

I left some “alternative translations” in place, in brackets.

  1. All that is, is of Yahweh.
  2. All creation began with Yahweh’s thoughts [mind]; hold all creations precious, according to [in accord with] their creators.
  3. All love flows from Yahweh’s love for thou; let love flow from thou in turn.
  4. All truth is light in [from] Yahweh’s eyes [sight]; do not heed nor provide false witness.
  5. All time is [created by] Yahweh’s pulse [breath]; use thy time to better thy self and thy neighbors.
  6. All life grew in Yahweh’s hands [grasp]; hold all life sacred.
  7. All names were [are] uttered [first] by Yahweh; use those words [thy tongue] with honor.
  8. The Tribes and Houses were ordained by Yahweh; honor thy tribe and thy house.
  9. Thy family is a gift from Yahweh; celebrate and rejoice in thy family.
  10. All that is Yahweh, is in [you] all that exists.

Anybody want to poke holes in that?

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I’m not sure if these are holes, or just my cynical nature coming to the fore.

  1. God is responsible for all evil. He’s also responsible for all natural disasters and any other misfortune. There can be no one to blame save Him.
  2. Implies there are other gods than Yahweh. Or implies that art critics are inherently nasty. Or that nothing should ever be used for anything other than the purpose for which it was created, whether it’s beneficial to do so or not.
  3. Eros? Agape?
  4. Nothing on this one.
  5. Who and/or what defines ‘better’? If your neighbors don’t follow your beliefs, are you supposed to forcibly convert them? Or just slaughter them?
  6. Since all life is sacred, but people still have to eat, then some life must be less sacred than others.
  7. There’s a difference between ‘names’ and ‘words’.
  8. “Don’t look for other ways of living 'Cause I Said So.”
  9. “Don’t look for other ways of living 'Cause I Said So.”
  10. We’re all cannibals. Since we are of God and everything thing we eat or make is of God, God is continually eating himself and remaking himself. But since we’re not immortal and things break, even though there are of God, it strongly implies that God is not perfect. If God is not perfect, how can we be certain these commandments are?

Overall, very, very anti-science. Which means as the basis for religion(s), it’s got a lot going for it.

Of course, any variations in translation are more than sufficient grounds for the various tribes and houses to slaughter one another. Someone with a long term view would arrange for cross-tribe marriages so that all people would (eventually) be of his tribe and thus make such conflicts unnecessary. But since the Tribes and Houses are ordained by God, I doubt such a thing could work.

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Once again, this is for a fantasy/urban fantasy world.

1 and 10: This is my version of Namaste. One can eat while still respectful of the life given. And I see that I need to include the concept of “free will”.
2. “Creator” is different than “creator”. This meant to mean a respect for the art and the crafts of others.
3. Eros, agape, philos
5. I need to work on that one; forcing others shouldn’t be implied or encouraged. I use “neighbor” here in the sense that Sparhawk in Eddings’ books does.
6. Yeah, I need to figure out this one to include the sense of stewardship.
7. I will agree to disagree with you on this one.
8. Honor does not equal conformity. Once again, this goes to the concept of no force.
9. I am not sure how “celebrate and rejoice” turns to this.

As far as evil, in a broad sense you would be right. As Yahweh assigned the Grigori (Fallen Angels) to watch over the mortal realm and the mortals, in this sense he is responsible. The Grigori, and their children the Nephilim, committed crimes due to free will. Yahweh is also responsible for casting them down into the Lake of Fire.

As far as anti-science, most fantasy is not science-based. But I am not anti-science. I like science. I am also aware that there are things that science can not explain, and that’s okay with me too.

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@Sunbeam - Looking to move near Lake Washington, so probably Renton or Kent, potentially. I’d like to be in Bellevue, but that may be something to look towards when we’re opting to buy a house. We’re going to settle into the area first before we go house-shopping so we’ll know whether that’s where we want to be in the first place. That and we need to get a bigger nest egg before doing that.

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I can see this for a fantasy world, but not for an urban fantasy world as I can’t see any society developing far enough to reach what I’d consider ‘urban’. This has got cultural and technological stasis written all over it in letters 17 meters high.

I had noticed the lack of free will. I figured it was intentional.

Using capital Creator and lower case creator in the same commandment is inherently confusing. Looking over the original and your response to my first pass leads me to think that might be intentional. Also implies that all creations are worth respect. They’re not. A poorly crafted piece of equipment can get you killed and I’m not going to respect anyone who attempts to provide such goods. (It also reminds me of what I consider the worst thing to happen in education in my lifetime, the awarding of unearned self-esteem. Be proud of things that you should be proud of. Don’t be proud of just showing up and/or doing a half assed job.)

Love?? The clarification helps. Clearly Yahweh doesn’t let love prevent him from doing what he considers necessary, else the Fallen Angels might not exist.

I’ve never read Eddings, so I don’t understand the reference. But bettering thy neighbors can only happen if you are better than them and that will not always be the case. (And just because something does work for you, it might not work for others. Your waterwheel is nice for milling grain and many other tasks, but the creek at your neighbor’s place is dry for three months of the year. He might get better results from a windmill or animal driven device.) How does one better one’s neighbors without them wanting to cold cock you for butting into their business? Mind you, given the commandment, they should be eager to accept instruction, but for someone not in this society, tread lightly.

The stewardship aspect sounds very pro environmental. Hopefully you’ll come up with something on that one. (Something like the Innuit concept of ‘inua’ maybe?) That said: Man builds dams for his purposes and beavers build dams for their purposes. While man can respect the beaver, that does not mean that man should submit to the beaver. I don’t think you can build a viable human society if the beavers have priority.

Every society has its own definitions of ‘honor’ and they’re not always compatible. But my problem is with the first part of that commandment more than the second.

Not all families are worth celebrating. Sometimes you need to leave one behind in order to create one that works. But the ninth commandment pretty much makes that impossible because Yahweh gave you that family and how dare you doubt Him. Now mind you, in a society actually living under these commandments, it might not be a problem. But for a group not living under these ideas who are then introduced to them, this and number eight are a good laugh.

Yeah, I’ve never understood the ‘omni-benevolent’ bit either.

It doesn’t matter if you call it ‘fantasy’. The real question is: Is it a good story? Does it have characters I’ll care about? Is the prose clean? Is my time not being wasted? Is it internally consistent? It doesn’t matter if it’s angels or aliens, hard-boiled detectives or clever kids. If the author says ‘This is how this works’ and then in the story, it turns out that it isn’t how it works, then yeah, I’m gonna have a problem.

Also, while I make no claim that you are anti-science, these commandments do strike me very much as anti-science. War and conflict boost technology. The peaceful, non-violent and extremely static society these commandments would shape would neither develop, nor need to develop, very far technologically. (If you think otherwise, feel free to explain.)

I apologize for my tendency to ramble.

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Assuming strict adherence to these commandments. Frankly, the Christian commandments if held to would have the same effect.

Oh, and if they were strict about it, they’d be steamrolled by the other people that aren’t so strict until no one is all that strict about it. Which is the part that’s missing with Islam right now, the militant expansionist faction of the religion needs to get punched in the face like a 21 year old getting stupid at a bar, that way they’ll know what not to do to be included in civilized company.

But as a side note. I fail to see how you can’t believe in science in religion. I’m seeing people try to draw black and white lines on this issue all over my facebook page. I believe in God, I believe the theory of evolution, I also think that God puts his thumb down on the random number generator whenever he wants to. Intelligent design, no, but intelligent selection maybe. I believe in God the watchmaker built this complex system and then kicked it off with the big bang.

I don’t believe every word in the Bible is true hard facts. Genesis is parable. Some of the Bible is actual history, and some of it is religious teaching. If you follow the ten commandments and the new testament, you’ll generally be a decent person. But you can’t take it cafeteria style.

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And some people want pedophilia protected under the guise of ‘religious liberty’.

I don’t know where these people got the idea that they can duck the law based on their religion. Wasn’t telling the Mormons no on polygamy enough to debunk this? The same people who want to enshrine abuse of the law, especially to protect their God-given right to treat others like crap would not be be so happy if adherents of a different religion were to do the same to them.

At least one state has gone so far as to include language that only protects Christian business owners. No other religion has the same rights, obviously.

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It started much earlier than this latest batch with Indian Tribes, and vaguely Indian hippies wanting ot do peyote legally. So they made it part of the religion. Moonies got away with all kinds of crap too.

One thing everyone should always keep in mind, is that if one side, or a part of one side can use the law to accomplish something, so can the other.

That’s part of what scares me about free speech zones and shit like that.

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Free speech zones were sneaked in some time during Clinton. It didn’t become ubiquitous until Bush.

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The First Amendment says the entire United States is a free speech zone. Not that our government cares about the Constitution anymore.

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And they don’t care because students grow up not being taught about their rights. So they don’t elect people who care.

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No, they grow up thinking they have rights that don’t exist. So they elect people who pander to that.

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53

I think you’re both right.

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Here in San Francisco, some reporters discovered that the Catholic Archdiocese had installed water outlets in the ceilings of the alcove doorways of St. Mary’s Cathedral (headquarters of the archbishop). Every 30 minutes, water would pour out for about 75 seconds, drenching any homeless person who had taken shelter for the night in the alcoves.

First, the archdiocese claimed it was to keep doorways clean. It said the intention was never to douse the homeless. It said that the homeless had been informed ahead of time.

Nobody in the community had been informed of this measure - it turned out the water “sprinklers” had been installed 2 years ago. The mayor and local organizations were appalled, and let the archdiocese know about it.

Then the archdiocese said it was a safety measure, that they were concerned about trash, syringes, etc., left in the doorways. They were concerned about the safety of children and elderly who passed by. They said it was to encourage the homeless to move to safer areas of the cathedral grounds that have been put aside for them.

Except the homeless are there at night. The archdiocese has slashed groundskeeper budgets for most of the Catholic churches in the area (Saint Anthony’s, which was one of the most popular Catholic churches in the area, looks like a dump from all the trash that has blown in from the street). The “safer” areas have no shelter from the elements. And there are “No trespassing” signs all around the cathedral.

Turns out that not only did the archdiocese not inform the community, it also failed to get a permit for the alterations, and the sprinklers violate the water usage rules in force. The diocese had to scramble to get contractors in to remove the sprinkler system.

The archdiocese is now whining that people are not being fair, that the archdiocese does more for the homeless than any other church in the area. Which is incorrect, most of the homeless programs run under the Catholic aegis are run by St. Vincent de Paul’s, which is not part of the archdiocese (but the archbishop has been trying to get the Vatican to change that). The other programs are through St. Anthony’s, which has had their funding cut numerous times while the archbishop remodels his offices (twice), and St. Anthony’s has had to get grants through foundations and the Mayor’s Office on Homelessness.

A lot of people knew there were going to be problems when Benedict/Ratzinger promoted an out-of-touch, ultra-conservative bishop from San Diego to head the Archdiocese. We’ve been proven right a number of times.

WWJD

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I’m going to go out on a limb and say “not that.”

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They’ll replace it with the “decorative” spikes people are using in Great Britain.

If they had a poor or homeless outreach area or ministry this could be reasonable. We’ll help the homeless on our terms and in a safe way sort of thing. But too often churches go the same way unions go, or I suppose that’s really the other way around, but it becomes more about the organization than about the members or the works. Homeless become a distraction to getting butts in the pews so Mother Church continues on.

I have to wonder about the membership of a church that lets the grounds go to hell like this. Our church would have a grounds committee and a volunteer rota scheduled out for the next six months in a couple weeks at most.

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Well, St. Anthony’s-the-church has been closed for a while, because the archdiocese decided they didn’t have the money to bring it up to code, what with earthquake-proofing and all, St. Anthony’s-the-organization is still going strong (they just don’t have their own church to attend mass in).

The organization has a clothes closet going four days a week, a food pantry going for five, lunch and dinner (last I knew) six days a week - on Sunday they have breakfast and everybody gets a bag lunch to take with them. And they have a job training program and help finding housing… which is all rather difficult in this town.

The Archdiocese, interestingly enough, is trying to sell off the church, marketing it as being perfect for businesses that aren’t interested in cubicles and a bunch of separate offices. Which goes to prove how out-of-touch the archdiocese is. They are also opening themselves up for a major lawsuit, because the building still needs those retrofits. And if they sell it to someone who is going to pull everything down, there’s going to be some major screaming going on; I doubt the City would approve something like that.

Meanwhile, the non-mainstream church, Glide, is celebrating more than 50 years of being inclusive and welcoming to everyone, and just finished a major remodel, and the necessary retrofits, to accommodate the increased traffic for their homelessness programs. (Glide is the church Mona goes to in the Tales of the City series, where she is sitting next to a drag queen sniffing poppers during the service)

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Our church is only 300 people, with over 150 of those being kids. Maybe 100 show up a week, and we meet in a middle school. But, we do multiple outreach programs, Easter Fesitval, movies in the park, we’ve partnered with a church in Nicaragua and do twice a year mission trips there, and we’ve tied into several local charities, including one for part time emergency housing of single mothers who are trying to get their shit together so they can get their kids out of foster care.

My wife and I want to start something, but I have no idea how to get there. We want to have a class or seminar where we teach people life skills. How to plan and store a week/month of food, how to take raw ingredients and make real food from them. How to budget, how to deal with monetary crisesesess (how do I stop spelling that?). How to do things like make your own laundry soap that make time and money sense. How to raise a balcony garden that will give you a few tomatoes or cucumbers in the summer.

So many of the stories we hear seem so simple to fix, if the people involved knew how to fix them. Can’t keep food on the table? Buy a big bag of flour, and some rice and beans and you can at least eat something every day. How to make it with only a hot plate, or just a dorm fridge, or no fridge.

Maybe we focus on just the food parts to keep it simpler. But Indiana gives a large amount for SNAP and so many people don’t know how to use it.

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Talk to people in the charities your church is already connected to and ask them for ideas or pointers. I’m sure one of them would be glad to help out.

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I know, part of the hang up is fear of the level of commitment it will take to do it right. This is something I believe in enough to really get carried away with.