Politics is Stupid

general
3038

I just did something I’ve never done before in my entire life: watched a Presidential debate from start to end as it occurred. I tried to be objective while watching it, though there were a few times I felt I was getting agitated. Now that it’s finished, I think I can be mostly objective with my impressions.

Both Harris and Trump had a several instances where they didn’t fully answer the question before they brought in other topics in answering it. Of the two, it was a larger number for Trump than Harris.

Among the questions Trump did not answer was whether he believed in the peaceful transfer of power. He hijacked the question by talking about something else and the moderators did not get a chance to ask again. On a couple of other questions, they did try a second time to get him to answer and he wouldn’t do it. (Need to double-check if the mod did try a second time for the peaceful transfer question.)

There was a little bit of fact-checking by the moderators, which Trump dismissed or ignored. I don’t remember if the mods fact-checked Harris.

Harris sounded like she might have been a little nervous at first, but she got through it. To me, she came across calm, cool and collected, with a few places where she was incredulous or a bit exasperated by what Trump was saying. She did a good job of explaining things. She would turn her head to look at him while she was talking about the things he did or didn’t do. Her point about the Biden administration having to clean up the mess left by Trump was well-reasoned. She took notes while Trump was speaking.

 
In contrast, Trump engaged in yet more conspiracy theories like Haitian immigrants eating the dogs and cats of people in the area they went to, and how Democrats support aborting babies in the 7th, 8th or 9th month, or even aborting them after birth by killing the newborn. Florida Senator Rick Scott has made similar statements recently about late-term or post-term abortion, such as crushing the baby’s skull or just putting the baby off to the side and ignoring it until it dies.

Trump’s message was straight out of his playbook: doom-and-gloommongering, fearmongering, denial and demonizing. Repeatedly, he claimed everything’s awful, everything’s falling apart, we’re on the cusp of World War III, but he will be our savior again and everything will be right as rain, just like it was the first time he was president. He did not take any notes when she was speaking.

It’s also notable that Trump never turned to look at Harris. The closest he got was giving her the side-eye twice while talking about her. Whether that’s because he didn’t feel she was worth looking at directly or if it was for some other reason, I don’t know.

The amount of time Harris and Trump got to speak was not equal because every time Harris finished, Trump immediately began countering it even when it wasn’t his turn to talk. He ran long every time he spoke. The two moderators attempted to get him to stop several times but were not able to.

In contrast, Harris stopped talking when the clock showed she was out of time. On the few times the moderators had to stop her because her time was up, she wrapped things up and stopped quickly.

Trump tried to take a jab at Harris by using her “I’m talking now” back at her that she said while debating Mike Pence four years ago, but if he thought it would shock her, it didn’t. I think there was a second time he tried, but it also didn’t phase her.

 
Trump will claim he won this debate, but the reality is Harris came across a rational and he didn’t.

3039

I didn’t watch the whole thing, I admire your fortitude for doing that :slight_smile:

I have watched large portions of it though, and I thought that Harris won easily. I think the moderators were a bit easier on her than on Trump, but that it was unnecssary as she had his number. I thought she showed exactly how easy it is to manipulate Trump. She triggered him on several occasions and he ended up acting up and shouting like a spoiled child. In particular:

  • crowd sizes
  • foreign leaders manipulating him
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3040

Trump, after being asked at the debate this week if he finally had come up with a plan to replace Obamacare after first trying nine years ago: “I don’t have a plan. I have concepts of a plan.”

How far along are those concepts? 12%? If you’ve gotten that far, then that’s pretty good. As Groot says, 12% is better than 11%.

After all, nobody knows everything as well as Trump does.

And nobody does things better than Trump:

And nobody has heard of these things:

And everything’s so easy for him:

And he definitely knows what kinds of questions he doesn’t like when it comes to COVID-19:

3041

Despite overcoming the overwhelming odds of the debate being rigged against him and it being three against one and it being so biased and unfair that ABC, and by extension, Disney, should lose their broadcasting license, and winning so much that he got something like 98% in after-debate polls announced within minutes of the debate ending while Harris got about 2%, Trump has decided he’s not going to debate her any more. There’s no need. It was a perfect debate. He came out on top. He would just trounce her again because it’s only the loser in a fight that immediately says they want a rematch like she did.

Of course, the fact that he was workshopping before the debate what would be a good excuse to use for getting out of any further debates has nothing to do with it. Nor that even people like RFK Jr., Lindsay Graham and Fox News reporters are saying, “Yeah, it was really bad.” Nor that an MSNBC commentator said, “He Kristi Noem’d his campaign.” Nor that the Harris campaign announced ahead of time they were going to get under Trump’s skin and the Trump campaign said they were preparing him to not take the bait and Harris saying, “Here’s the bait, Donald” and Donald taking the bait every time. Nor Harris telling the world that he’s easy to manipulate with flattery and showing the world he’s easy to manipulate by pushing specific buttons.

No, it wasn’t any of that. Skipping any further debates was a shrewd tactical move, nothing more, just like he did in 2020.

But one thing has me puzzled. If The Donald won so overwhelmingly even though there was so much stacked against him to ensure he couldn’t possibly win, why isn’t he happy? If it was me, I’d be boasting. “They threw everything they had at me and I was good enough overcome it.” But not so with The Donald. He’s still whining and complaining and kvetching about it. You’d think he’d lost by the way he’s talking.

 
Setting snark aside, Harris achieved her goal in the debate. She quickly put him on the back foot, kept him there and showed a lot of people what she’s capable of. While another debate against Trump could help seal that image, now she can focus on providing the substance behind her message. During debates of the past, she would have provided the substance during them. But with a large portion of this one being devoted to pushing Trump’s buttons, there wasn’t time. Now there is. Now she can show more of what she’s capable of doing.

Trump won’t bow out the way Biden did because that means there’s no longer any reason for the civil and federal cases against him to be put on hold. But even if he was going to, it’s too late. States are printing up their ballots right now. The candidates cannot be changed any more, which is what tripped up RFK Jr. when he said he was suspending his campaign and wanted people to vote for Trump, but he missed the deadline for it in a few states.

3042

Presidents don’t make laws. I am tired of every single president saying they will do this or that when they simply don’t have the ability. Congress has managed to pass the buck so hard that it appears that they really don’t do anything at all. And the days where a Senate might oppose a proposal because it’s bad as compared to because the other party came up with it are long gone. Same for opposing something your party sponsored. Even if it will be bad for the people they represent, if the party says yes or no, you do it.

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3043

When something is given the National Special Security Event designation by the Department of Homeland Security, it means it needs extra security because it has national significance. Such events include presidential inaugurations and political conventions.

On September 12th, the DHS designated that the certification of electoral votes that will occur on Monday, January 6, 2025 is now a National Special Security Event. What should be a routine task performed by the House of Representatives is a high security risk event.

 
In the days since the Harris-Trump debate, there has been a bomb threat against the Springfield, Ohio City Hall and bomb threats at various schools, agencies and media outlets in the city. The City Hall threat included the Haitians eating cats and dogs conspiracy theory spouted by Trump at the debate. Prior to that, his campaign said Haitians had “reportedly been caught ‘decapitating ducks’ and hunting geese and other livestock in public parks—and even kidnapping residents’ pets—then eating them.”

J.D. Vance has also been spouting this conspiracy theory. When he was informed it wasn’t true, he said, okay, it might not be true, but keep posting cat memes.

Threats against Haitians, including death threats, are now prevalent.

We now have the source of the conspiracy theory. It was a Facebook post on a crime watch page for Springfield by a woman who says she’s a Democrat that’s voting for Trump.

Reading through it, I already spotted several problems. I’m going to post it verbatim and what those problems are so you can see how easy it is to poke holes in this conspiracy. I’m going to be a little bit blunt and matter-of-fact about this, so there’s your warning if you might be sensitive to this subject.

Warning to all about our beloved pets & those around us!!

My neighbor informed me that her daughters friend had lost her cat. She checked pages, kennels, asked around, etc. One day she came home from work, as soon as she stepped out of her car, looked towards a neighbors house, where Haitians live, & saw her cat hanging from a branch, like you’d do a deer for butchering, & they were carving it up to eat. I’ve been told they are doing this to dogs, they have been doing it at snyder park with the ducks & geese, as I was told that last bit from Rangers & police. Please keep a close eye on these animal

Here’s the problems:

  1. The woman heard it from her neighbor, who heard it from her daughter, who heard it from her friend that her friend had lost her cat. She is reporting fourth-hand unsubstantiated information, a la the REO Speedwagon song “Take It on the Run”. (“Heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who heard it from another you’ve been messin’ around.”)
     
  2. A cat is much smaller than a deer. It is not necessary to hang it from a branch if your intention is to butcher it for its meat.
     
  3. Because a cat is much smaller, this process can be performed in a kitchen, a shed or other room, not out in the open in their yard.
     
  4. The woman said she was told it was also happening to dogs by unnamed other people.
     
  5. The woman said she was told it was also happening to ducks and geese at a city park by “Rangers & police”. This means that before she posted the message on Facebook, she took it upon herself to investigate this problem and found out it was more widespread than a single incident with one cat. However, she did not provide any names or cite any sources she found during her investigation.

Those are the problems I found just be reading the post. A bunch of city officials are stating this hasn’t happened. There’s further proof that it didn’t happen.

Because the woman’s name was in the Facebook post, NewsGuard was able to talk with her in person and ask about it. They are a company that works to counter online misinformation. You can read their report, which also covers how this spread to be a nationwide problem. It’s also been covered by New Lines Magazine, but the NewsGuard report found it wasn’t the friend of the neighbor’s daughter that had the missing cat, but was “an acquaintance of a friend”, the neighbor admits they’re “not the most credible source because I don’t actually know the person who lost the cat” and she heard about it from “a source that she had” but she “didn’t have any proof”.

Snopes is also reporting that a related subject of “Haitian Goose-Hunting” being false.

Republicans chose to spread this conspiracy theory.
J.D. Vance chose to spread this conspiracy theory.
Donald Trump chose to spread this conspiracy theory.
And now Haitians in Springfield, Ohio and elsewhere are being subjected to hatred based on a false and unsubstantiated message that the woman has since deleted and who was “shocked” to hear Trump had repeated it.

3044

Oh, lord. Here we go again.

Earlier today, a person was in the process of making an assassination attempt on Trump but was spotted before it happened. He was set up in the bushes of one of the properties adjacent to Trump’s golf course in West Palm Beach with an AK-47 and a telescopic scope.

Secret Service spotted the rifle was pointed at the golf course, opened fire and the man fled, leaving the rifle behind. A witness got a picture of the car he fled in and the FBI arrested Ryan Routh not long after. Initial reports are that Routh has had problems with the law for quite a while now and there’s some red flags in his online messages.

Golf courses are a difficult location for the Secret Service to secure. If someone is a President that is playing golf, the entire course and a lot of the surrounding area is shut down. For former Presidents, it’s usually just a detail that accompanies them while they’re playing and they’ll check any other people on the course that are nearby.
 

Folks, no matter how much you might not like Trump, stop trying to do something like this. Each person that does this makes the situation worse because Trump becomes even more of a martyr each time than he already is to his followers. Martyrs include people that are still alive. He’s already fundraising off of this attempt, just like he did two months ago.

If you really want Trump to be defeated, leave him alone. He and Vance were doing just fine in making a mess of their campaign with what they say and do. The campaign was burning through more money than it was taking in. If he isn’t elected this time around, he’s not going to be in a position to run for office the next time.

Things like this play right into his long-standing narrative of being persecuted and being a victim and it’s all a witch hunt against him. It gives him sympathy. It gives him more people that are angry on his behalf. It gives him money.

Stop doing this.

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3045

Some elements on the right have already come out blaming the left. Which is utter nonsense.
The reality is that it was a nutjob last time, and another nutjob this time, and Donald Trump is so polarising that he is an easy decision as a target.

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3046

Oh the irony!
The guy who tried to assassinate Trump this time was born in America.
The guy prosecuting him - a Haitian immigrant.

3047

There is one party and group of people saying this is a fight for the soul of the nation and defending democracy, and that the other person will do all sorts of horrific things, saying the other person is a dictator who must be stopped at all costs, and who has a history of committing violence in order to enact change. Kathy Gifford was a small example from several years ago.

Don’t let the fact that there are attacks against him make you think that there are attacks against him. Stop feeding the narrative by doing what’s already been done. Like I said above, one party has consistently used violence to achieve political goals. Not to say that there aren’t violent Republicans, or that Republicans haven’t done violent things. But violence as an option is baked into progressivism.

So sure, victim blame. It’s his fault he’s so horrible that people want to shoot him. This makes no sense at all. It’s one thing to make dumb jokes or laugh about shit like that, it’s another to be like, well, what did he think would happen when he said what he thought and people assumed he was 10 times worse than what he said?

Like anyone wants JD Vance for President? Or really any of these assholes?

3048

So it’s okay for Trump to say he’s going to be a dictator, but if Democrats point out that’s what he said they are inciting violence against him?
It’s okay for Trump to promote the lie that Haitians are eating pets (which actually has resulted in violence), but calling him out on the lie is inciting violence against him?

Okay, got it!

3049

Promoting the lie that he called Nazis very fine people, as recently as last week?

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The people saying these things are the ones that blamed Palin’s bullseyes for the Gifford shooting. But some offhanded comment about wanting to be a dictator in a job famous for not getting anything done easily and the exaggeration of a rumor in a troubled town are equal to attempted murder that was celebrated and then blamed on the potential victim.

3050

Also, louder for those in the back. The 1st amendment protects all speech in all forms through any method.

Including yelling fire in a crowded theatre. You may be sued for damages afterwards, but it’s not actually illegal.

3051

I know you disagree with me but Trump is a threat to the nation. Kamala isn’t great either but she’s a much smaller threat.

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3052

So by that reasoning assination is justified. Not being sarcastic. Anyone who believes he is real threat should be supporting an action lile this against him. If i believed someone running was a real threat to democracy or the nation itself I would call for their elimination by any means necessary.

If its not just hypebole than something should be done. If it is just hyperbole people need to dial it back. Marketing people have done a great job at panicking people, and this is what haopens when people panic.

And since the president doesnt have the power to do 90% of what people worry about then its hyperbole. Presidents don’t pass laws. Get Harris and lose Congress and her policies wint happen either.

3053

I’m sorry, but believing that a potential president will be detrimental to our country is a long ways from condoning assassination.

Also, you keep talking as if the president does not have a strong influence on what laws are passed and what policies get adopted. He/she does. You believe that words don’t matter, but ask any linguist, and they will tell you how much words DO matter. Words influence how we think.

Think about it this way. Does a CEO influence the culture of a company? Yes, they do. Same for the leader of a country.

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3054

The president cannot pass legislation. At best they cheerlead for change, and if they use the power of the executive branch they can be stopped by congress… And a CEO can make sweeping changes depending on the company.

And language does matter. And detrimental to the country and threat to democracy are different.

3055

And im rolling into why I stopped having these conversations. Its a busy time of year and I am regurgitating raw thoughts into the internet and not properly making my point.

Suffice to say, I believe the language used by the media and used by those in office and amplified by the media was going to cause this reaction. Selectively edited video and audio showing a certain story in order to drive fear and anger, by supposed neutral parties, is going to cause chaos. Just like when those same people called for riots and those happened.

3056

“kill our energy independence”

I was at a table with three Maga relatives last night, and this came up.
I simply asked, ‘how much oil are we pumping right now?’ They didn’t want to answer, because we all know that the US oil industry is pumping more oil than any nation has- ever. Bar none. Most oil ever. The Biden administration apparently plans to strangle the Oil industry by drowning them in pools of cash.

Now the issue is that America doesn’t have enough refineries.

3057

Politics is all about contrasts. While a lot of campaigns can boil down to an “us vs. them” message, here’s a campaign’s message that combines vehicle maintenance with down-to-earth analogies.